Ally Bongo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It's generally quoted....and it has been all my life....that Churchill was 'Britain's greatest ever Prime Minister'. That's not a quote that covers reality, but it's one which is often accepted without question. I think when you consider the likely consequences of him not being Prime Minister in the early days of the war then you understand why that quote and belief is widespread The probability is that most of us would have been slaves of the Nazis That does give him an advantage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I think when you consider the likely consequences of him not being Prime Minister in the early days of the war then you understand why that quote and belief is widespread The probability is that most of us would have been slaves of the Nazis That does give him an advantage There is a lot of speculation in that. Sorry,but i don't but into all that "Churchill saved us from the Nazis" bollox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 “History is the propaganda of the victors.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Blackheart Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I remember when I was with my babysitter years ago - octogenarian back then - and something about Churchill losing the post-war election came on the telly. I asked why he'd lost, and she just said something like, "we'd all had enough of him". The implication being, as I look back, that his attitude vis-a-vis the "common man" was not popular. Then again, I remember watching some blue tanks "making the peace" in Soweto on the news and her commenting that "they've got it right down there". It was a different time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) There is a lot of speculation in that. Sorry,but i don't but into all that "Churchill saved us from the Nazis" bollox. There were many in Westminster that wanted not only to appease the Germans but also to surrender to them as war broke out. Hitler made several official peace offers to Britain These are facts History is the propaganda of the victors as Thplinth says but to deny that Churchill had a crucial impact in the late 30s and early 40s then you would have to rewrite that particular part of history. Without him we would have made terms with Hitler - of that there is very little doubt Edited May 26, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flumax Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Without him we would have made terms with Hitler - of that there is very little doubt I have issues with this sort of logic. Without him? What made him so special, that no other pm could or would have done? It's like the whole Gordon Brown saved the world /banks /union... He just happened to be presiding over it at the time. In my view he was in the right place at the right time to go down in history. Nothing special about him. I would hate to see reports in the future of brave dave Cameron single handedly saving the union in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 There were many in Westminster that wanted not only to appease the Germans but also to surrender to them as war broke out. Hitler made several official peace offers to Britain These are facts History is the propaganda of the victors as Thplinth says but to deny that Churchill had a crucial impact in the late 30s and early 40s then you would have to rewrite that particular part of history. Without him we would have made terms with Hitler - of that there is very little doubt dear oh dear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 There were many in Westminster that wanted not only to appease the Germans but also to surrender to them as war broke out. Hitler made several official peace offers to Britain These are facts History is the propaganda of the victors as Thplinth says but to deny that Churchill had a crucial impact in the late 30s and early 40s then you would have to rewrite that particular part of history. Without him we would have made terms with Hitler - of that there is very little doubt The programme last night alluded to just that. A weaker, less driven PM in charge may well have led to Britain staying out of the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I think Churchill was a disaster for Britain. Most folk at the time listening to him on the radio thought he was half cut I read recently (some analysis of soldier diaries / letters I think it was). It all sounded good decades after the event but if you had lost loved ones it would have just been empty words from a nasty old bigoted drunk living in comparative luxury. People agree history is the propaganda of the victors but ok what of it is exactly? and to what extent does it go? You do actually have to make judgements for yourself as the history books will obviously not be telling you. So where are you actually deviating from the official historical script? Saying yes history is propaganda and then telling people they are 'denying' if they disagree with your views on it is why we fell out last time Ally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) I have issues with this sort of logic. Without him? What made him so special, that no other pm could or would have done? It's like the whole Gordon Brown saved the world /banks /union... He just happened to be presiding over it at the time. In my view he was in the right place at the right time to go down in history. Nothing special about him. I would hate to see reports in the future of brave dave Cameron single handedly saving the union in 2014. I think you really need to read up on the political landscape of the 30s before saying "anyone else could have done the job" I think Churchill was a disaster for Britain. Most folk at the time listening to him on the radio thought he was half cut I read recently (some analysis of soldier diaries / letters I think it was). It all sounded good decades after the event but if you had lost loved ones it would have just been empty words from a nasty old bigoted drunk living in comparative luxury. People agree history is the propaganda of the victors but ok what of it is exactly? and to what extent does it go? You do actually have to make judgements for yourself as the history books will obviously not be telling you. So where are you actually deviating from the official historical script? Saying yes history is propaganda and then telling people they are 'denying' if they disagree with your views on it is why we fell out last time Ally. Ah - just got that. Was wondering what the wave was for Id rather we put that behind us Anyway i have absolutely no disagreements on Churchill's chequered (to say the least) history He was as unpopular then as he is now for obvious reasons However my point still stands - if he hadnt been around we would have without question done a deal with the Germans. I dont really think that is up for debate with everything we know Everything else i have no issue with Edited May 26, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Take one small example... the behaviour of the mainstream media during the referendum. Because we were all following it so closely their behaviour was thrown into sharp relief for a lot of people who previously never noticed it so much, suddenly their phony mask was gone, it was horrific. You do not go back from something like that, you do not trust again. If you do you are a mug. So what was it like in the 1930's with no internet and no TV (not that it would have helped) everyone relying on newspapers. The papers are total and complete scum. Look at the unbelievable lies they pushed to get the Iraq war going and that was in the internet age. I think we are living in a world of lies and it goes back deep. Edited May 26, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 A weaker, less driven PM in charge may well have led to Britain staying out of the war. I thought we'd already been at war with Germany for a year when Churchill took over?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Take one small example... the behaviour of the mainstream media during the referendum. Because we were all following it so closely their behaviour was thrown into sharp relief for a lot of people who previously never noticed it so much, suddenly their phony mask was gone, it was horrific. You do not go back from something like that, you do not trust again. If you do you are a mug. So what was it like in the 1930's with no internet and no TV (not that it would have helped) everyone relying on newspapers. The papers are total and complete scum. Look at the unbelievable lies they pushed to get the Iraq war going and that was in the internet age. I think we are living in a world of lies and it goes back deep. Much of Britain's involvement in conflicts in the 20th and 21st centuries have a dubious history. The exception though would be WW2 against your actual Nazis. The reasons for going to war were probably different from the reasons why opposing Hitler was the right thing to do though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 The footage from his political rally in Walthamstow right at the end of the war was astonishing. Thousands of people abusing and booing him, and Churchill being forced to cut short his speech so he could be rushed away by the police as his safety couldn't be guaranteed.....then Churchill being shown leaning out of car window flicking the V's at workers while being driven away. Really remarkable material. This was weeks after VE-day, in the East End.....and he was hated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Maybe Europe was destroyed in the 20th Century much like the Middle East is being destroyed now in the 21st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) A lot of writers that criticise Churchill and his contribution in the lead up to and early years of the War do so by using a helluva lot of supposition - usually being the Nazis wouldnt have been as bad if we had taken a different approach Of course he didnt win us the war - but he stopped us from capitulating before it really got started That was his great contribution Edited May 26, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Maybe Europe was destroyed in the 20th Century much like the Middle East is being destroyed now in the 21st. Thought about that while watching 1945 The Savage Peace and trying not to throw up. It seemed like Europe was going through a period of dehumanisation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x30lb/1945-the-savage-peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Thought about that while watching 1945 The Savage Peace and trying not to throw up. It seemed like Europe was going through a period of dehumanisation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x30lb/1945-the-savage-peace Without the yanks, he'd be Phuqq all. Adolph would've demolished us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Without the yanks, he'd be Phuqq all. Adolph would've demolished us. Like in 1940 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Like in 1940 ? fair point Herr Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Without the yanks, he'd be Phuqq all. Adolph would've demolished us.Adolf was their problem - a military bungler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Adolf was their problem - a military bungler. Rommel cidna stand him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofoi Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Churchill should never have been anywhere near public life again after Gallipoli. He should have been sent off to a gin/rum soaked officers mess in the colonies. Did he save us from Hitler? Maybe the working class squaddies and 51st highland division did. Their sheer fighting resolve and will power, not for king and Churchill but for each other. Maybe Hitler blinking and turning east saved us. Who knows? Maybe the working class 19-20 odd year old pilots saved us, not just the pinewood studio tally-ho Douglas Bader types! One of the best books I've read is the Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart. Just one normal guys view of it all, not a politician or general after his legacy and place in history. Just a young apprentice called up and his view of it all. Heres a wee bit about the east end dockers. Daily Fail so must be true! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2930818/Anger-BBC-Churchill-documentary-docker-s-claim-operators-paid-lower-cranes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Read it , really good read . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 The people who defeated Hitler were the Soviets and in particular the Russians. Which makes it even more disgusting that so many western leaders declined their invitation to their recent may commemorations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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