Flora MaDonald Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Very good fae Deputy Dug. At least Uncle Joe was more honest than these lying bastirts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Stalin suffered a mental breakdown though, so he might have been deranged when he introduced the gulag policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 If it is collective responsibility, something reserved for cabinet ministers rather than parliamentary wide, does this mean anyone who doesn't agree with party policy will resign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Very good fae Deputy Dug. At least Uncle Joe was more honest than these lying bastirts. Well, it's an internal matter for the SNP surely so I don't really see what Kez is bumping her gums about. Mind yer ain, I'd say. The second point is that I don't think anyone voted for Stalinism. This was democratically agreed at the SNP conference by SNP members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 In fairness, I've just seen something which does raise a serious concern. The committees in Holyrood exist to hold the SNP Government to account. Since the SNP won a majority, this represents a serious conflict of interest IMO. Sure, SNP MSPs were happy to toe the line as it is, but tighter control of MSPs constitutes an increasingly serious situation in Holyrood. In amongst all of the current constitutional mess, we're going to need to revisit AMS and committee formation or look at a second chamber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 The scrutiny committees were a bit farcical during the cluster over the new school campus down here. The council approved proposals without public or media presence (legal requirement), and the committees papered over it. Other than that I don't know too much about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 If it is collective responsibility, something reserved for cabinet ministers rather than parliamentary wide, does this mean anyone who doesn't agree with party policy will resign? 3 MSPs resigned over the NATO thing. If Katy Clark had any principles and self respect she would leave the Labour party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 3 MSPs resigned over the NATO thing. If Katy Clark had any principles and self respect she would leave the Labour party. Nothing in your stroppy post addressed my question. If a cabinet minister can't agree with the prime minister, unless previously excused to do so, they will resign. If this is party wide Collective Responsibility, will any dissenters within the SNP resign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Nothing in your stroppy post addressed my question. If a cabinet minister can't agree with the prime minister, unless previously excused to do so, they will resign. If this is party wide Collective Responsibility, will any dissenters within the SNP resign? I have no idea Edited March 30, 2015 by Flure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Thank you Flure, I'll let you know if I get an answer. Actually among the angst and hormones of Orraloons post he did bring a thought to my mind. Perhaps the local SNP boys and girls can finally stop with their "Katy Clark should join the SNP" rhetoric. Given dissent is now a no no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I read Katy Clarks campaign leaflet at weekend. She mentioned SNP zero times. Was pleasantly surprised. Others could learn from it. Especially Skelator and Deputy Dugface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I read Katy Clarks campaign leaflet at weekend. She mentioned SNP zero times. Was pleasantly surprised. Others could learn from it. Especially Skelator and Deputy Dugface. You'll be telling me she has policies next.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 You'll be telling me she has policies next.... She's a wonderful lady! Sometimes I like to imagine what it would have been like if her and Neil Findlays leadership bid had been successful... Then I remember the Labour membership are scum and I come crashing straight back down to earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Scunnered, why does it matter to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Scunnered, why does it matter to you? The party currently in government in Holyrood and that will soon hold the majority of Westminster seats in Scotland, passed a motion forbidding its Parliamentary team from showing dissent towards party line. That's rather significant is it not? Patricia Gibson and Katy Clark will be at the RIC meeting next week. I'll put it to Patricia that our current MP will vote against her party line and speak out against them when their position is not in the interests of her constituents, and now it appears that the SNP have forbidden their parliamentary team from doing so. But I'd say the motion mentioned goes deeper than that. On occasions in cabinet we've seen ministers vote through proposals due to Collective Responsibility of their government, but while doing so they've spoke out and said they don't personally agree with it. The above motions appears to forbid even that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I suppose it depends where you want to make your arguments. Inside the party before a policy decision is taken, then accept the democracy of the party and put a unified face to the public (happens in business day in, day out). Or outside the party showboating for your individual motives. Telling everyone how much of a rebel you are and how much your not "controlled" by "them". But if it really comes down to a red line issue that an individual absolutely disagrees with, the door is always there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Actually, now that I remember. Following the post-referendum conference when the SNP rejected a Yes alliance (and who could blame them with such a membership surge), in favour of allowing non members to stand on a Yes ticket, I said "That won't do any good, they'll be brutally chained to the SNP whip!"... "No they won't, no they won't!" Came the cry. Aye they will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Actually, now that I remember. Following the post-referendum conference when the SNP rejected a Yes alliance (and who could blame them with such a membership surge), in favour of allowing non members to stand on a Yes ticket, I said "That won't do any good, they'll be brutally chained to the SNP whip!"... "No they won't, no they won't!" Came the cry. Aye they will! You're a prophet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I suppose it depends where you want to make your arguments. Inside the party before a policy decision is taken, then accept the democracy of the party and put a unified face to the public (happens in business day in, day out). Or outside the party showboating for your individual motives. Telling everyone how much of a rebel you are and how much your not "controlled" by "them". But if it really comes down to a red line issue that an individual absolutely disagrees with, the door is always there. Freedom of Discussion, Unity of Action! Comrade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The party currently in government in Holyrood and that will soon hold the majority of Westminster seats in Scotland, passed a motion forbidding its Parliamentary team from showing dissent towards party line. That's rather significant is it not? Patricia Gibson and Katy Clark will be at the RIC meeting next week. I'll put it to Patricia that our current MP will vote against her party line and speak out against them when their position is not in the interests of her constituents, and now it appears that the SNP have forbidden their parliamentary team from doing so. But I'd say the motion mentioned goes deeper than that. On occasions in cabinet we've seen ministers vote through proposals due to Collective Responsibility of their government, but while doing so they've spoke out and said they don't personally agree with it. The above motions appears to forbid even that. Ok tell me what difference it will actually make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ok tell me what difference it will actually make? When I think of politicians that I admire, the ones who come to mind are the Dennis Skinners, the John McDonnells, the Margo MacDonalds, the Jim Sillars and of course the Katy Clarks... And even current Tory Sarah Wollaston. Politicians who in a parliamentary or parliamentary committee debate will stand up and say when they disagree with the line their party is taking... They will give their view on why they disagree with the line the party is taking and if they're not a cabinet minister they will defy whip and vote against their party. Under the SNP's rule the public will never know who has taken a stand against a party policy they disagree with, these talks will take place away from public eye, away from the people the MP's and MSP's are elected to serve. They'll not be able to say "that SNP policy is pure shite, but at least my MSP didn't back it". It's forced loyalty, and creating an environment that the SNP are only answerable to themselves. In my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's forced loyalty, and creating an environment that the SNP are only answerable to themselves. In my humble opinion. Eh? If an MP votes this way or that way - irrespective of any internal debates that he or she has previously has within the party - he or she is completely answerable to the electorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nothing in your stroppy post addressed my question. If a cabinet minister can't agree with the prime minister, unless previously excused to do so, they will resign. If this is party wide Collective Responsibility, will any dissenters within the SNP resign? That will be up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 You're a prophet. He disnae beleive in profits. He's a socialist don't you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 He disnae beleive in profits. He's a socialist don't you know? Sorry. For goat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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