Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Motion at SNP conference. Seems a bit sinister to me, but as ever I'm happy to be educated on other viewpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 I should say, "Damage Limitation" is poor choice of words, I couldn't think of the right term so just used the words of an SNP member who feels the above is needed following the NATO fallout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 So no open discourse on group decisions. Scientology has that rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I can understand why a political party wouldn't want a member to publicly criticise polices - want to create an image of solidarity etc It becomes sinister if there's no place for different views, opinions and debate on policies in private. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 I can understand why a political party wouldn't want a member to publicly criticise polices - want to create an image of solidarity etc It becomes sinister if there's no place for different views, opinions and debate on policies in private. But it's a false image of solidarity if there are MP's/MSP's who don't agree with party line. Do any other parties have any such policy? It's not one I've ever came across before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 But it's a false image of solidarity if there are MP's/MSP's who don't agree with party line. Do any other parties have any such policy? It's not one I've ever came across before. They practice it i'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Collective responsibility is hardly a new concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 That looks like a fairly bog standard rule to be fair & I'd expect all the major parties will have something similar. Given the SNP are anticipating a significantly increased Parliamentary group then they'll want a framework for managing internal discipline. Of greater interest is how you enforce it. It was known as Democratic Centralism in the old USSR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 It's a bizarre one really. I wonder what Dennis Skinner or John McDonnell would have made of it should Labour have introduced such a policy? One of the SNP members I was discussing this with earlier (she doesn't agree with it and see's it as a move towards a "centralised dictatorship"), pointed out that from when she became an SNP member in 2011, not one SNP MP or MSP has voted against party line in Holyrood or Westminster. Including the Football Behaviour act, the Police Scotland reform and education cuts. If that can be verified that's startling, not one representative has voted against party line, including publicly divisive policies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 It was known as Democratic Centralism in the old USSR In Democratic Centralisation, the executive is elected from top to bottom, branches have a duty to question leadership, and all branches vote on policies. They also have the power to recall leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) Collective responsibility also known as "Collective Guilt" is a concept in which individuals are responsible for other people's actions by tolerating, ignoring, or harboring them, without actively collaborating in these actions. Collective responsibility is widely applied in corporations, where the entire workforce is held responsible for failure to achieve corporate targets (for example, profit targets), irrespective of the performance of individuals or teams which may have achieved or overachieved within their area. Edited March 29, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 What's the point of individual MP's if it's only one lever moving them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Collective responsibility is hardly a new concept. I'd argue this goes above and beyond collective responsibility, which is reserved for cabinet ministers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I'd argue this goes above and beyond collective responsibility, which is reserved for cabinet ministers. OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 It's a bizarre one really. I wonder what Dennis Skinner or John McDonnell would have made of it should Labour have introduced such a policy? One of the SNP members I was discussing this with earlier (she doesn't agree with it and see's it as a move towards a "centralised dictatorship"), pointed out that from when she became an SNP member in 2011, not one SNP MP or MSP has voted against party line in Holyrood or Westminster. Including the Football Behaviour act, the Police Scotland reform and education cuts. If that can be verified that's startling, not one representative has voted against party line, including publicly divisive policies? Three MSPs have quit the party instead though on NATO membership issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 It's a bizarre one really. I wonder what Dennis Skinner or John McDonnell would have made of it should Labour have introduced such a policy? For all the good that it's done them not having it ............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm behind the paywall so can't actually read the article. But it's made the Herald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/snp-clampdown-on-mps-who-fail-to-toe-the-party-line.121904022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Made the Herald? It's hardly breaking news... been discussed for last couple of weeks hasn't it? Don't really see the problem - no different to a party whip system and most parties fall into line with leadership in public at least. If party members were going to punished with expulsion for merely disagreeing, I'd be concerned but it looks like party politics to me. Meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Made the Herald? It's hardly breaking news... been discussed for last couple of weeks hasn't it? Don't really see the problem - no different to a party whip system and most parties fall into line with leadership in public at least. If party members were going to punished with expulsion for merely disagreeing, I'd be concerned but it looks like party politics to me. Meh. I suppose if one wanted to make an issue of it, there are arguments to be made that equate it to all sorts of nonsense. But, really, in the real world, it's as so eloquently put it, "Meh". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ah well. I thought it merited discussion as from my view it's split your members much like the All Womans Shortlists. I for one appreciate the importance of dissent within political structures, but the TAMB has spoken, it's "Meh". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ah well. I thought it merited discussion as from my view it's split your members much like the All Womans Shortlists. I for one appreciate the importance of dissent within political structures, but the TAMB has spoken, it's "Meh". I don't think it has. Undoubtedly there is a split about All Women Shortlists. But not so much on party discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I don't think it has. From my point of view it has. Granted most of the SNP members in my circle are ones who have joined from leaving Labour, or after involvement in RIC, so could very well be a vocal minority... And the type to publicly criticise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 From my point of view it has. Granted most of the SNP members in my circle are ones who have joined from leaving Labour, or after involvement in RIC, so could very well be a vocal minority... And the type to publicly criticise. OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtscotland Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm behind the paywall so can't actually read the article. But it's made the Herald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/snp-clampdown-on-mps-who-fail-to-toe-the-party-line.121904022 From the Herald - THE SNP has banned its MPs from criticising the party, in a move that will help the leadership control political newcomers elected in May. In a behind-closed-doors session, delegates voted to toughen up the rules for Westminster MPs. The new standings orders state that any MP must "accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group". The SNP declined to comment on the move but confirmed it was passed "overwhelmingly" by delegates. It was criticised by the deputy leader of Scottish Labour, Kezia Dugdale, who said: "This is Stalinist discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertsscot Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 From the Herald - THE SNP has banned its MPs from criticising the party, in a move that will help the leadership control political newcomers elected in May. In a behind-closed-doors session, delegates voted to toughen up the rules for Westminster MPs. The new standings orders state that any MP must "accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group". The SNP declined to comment on the move but confirmed it was passed "overwhelmingly" by delegates. It was criticised by the deputy leader of Scottish Labour, Kezia Dugdale, who said: "This is Stalinist discipline. Slight over reaction from Dugdale, Stalinist discipline usually involved Uncle Joe ordering dissident factions being shot or sent to the Gulag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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