Urgent: Flower Of Scotland

[CraigieBrown]

Feck me that video clips was cringeworthy - what a bunch of twats.

As a Rangers supporter I take exception to your generalisations. We are not all knuckledraggers nor are all of the TA holier than thou angels on the side of democracy. Grow up FFS!

There will undoubtedly be idiots there to goad the fans but it's up to you to be an adult and remember the example you set to the kids that will be there.

Dunno what everyone else wants to happen regarding this coming match but if the complete brain dead tosspots that were waving their union jack around and callin Alex Salmond a granny shagger and wearing their England tops turn up at this game, they deserve every ounce of shite that is thrown at them. They would probably get a kicking and there is no way I would step in to help them either. As I said earlier, it is such a shame that the SFA decided to play this first match after the indyref at the house of unionist shame. They have shamed the country so many times, they do not want to be and do not deserve to be Scottish. I think there will be problems on Saturday - caused yet again by people like the knuckle draggers in the video. I really hope they stay away.

[Marky]

I think like most other folk going on Saturday i have totally toyed with how i will feel come Saturday's anthems. The feeling the vast majority of Scotland fans felt early doors on the friday morning of that our hearts had been ripped out and every bit of passion we had for great country had been kicked into touch.

Personally i have never felt such a combination of dejection, embarrassment, disgust anger and just about every other negative emotion immaginable, we all pretty much had an idea that we'd feel pretty low if we became the first country in the modern world to turn down a chance to govern ourselves, but i dont think any of us realised just how low we would feel and just how far reaching theat feeling would impact our everyday lifes and even intrests hobbys and.....fitba.

No club or country defeat ever came close to the feeling 45% of the country felt when the reality of what our own country had voted for became clear, and hopefully it's a feeling none of us will ever have to endure again.

However, after a hell of a lot of thought it has became crystal clear to me that THIS time at THIS venue it is an absolute must we dont give up on our beliefs and our passion that we have for our country, a passion many of the 55% dont have and never will have.

I completley understand those that say they almost feel sick at thought of singing a song that up until the 18th of September meant SO much to us all, and now appears to mean so little, i get that, and get the feeling that we have had our passion ripped out of us.....However it should be the opposite.

We have only 1 chance to show that we are not beat, we are not a puppet nation and that we as passionate about our country as ever. A half hearted version of FOS only gives a message to the twats we saw in the videos in George Square that 'they won', that our country is Britain ,and that Scotland and its ambition to be free and our own nation is now dead.

Please remember the videos of the cretins above when the pipes start up, please remember that while it was a huge huge chance missed, that ultimately it IS going to happen, and that its up to the 45% of people to keep what we had and gave and hopefully many of the duped 55% will not make the same mistake twice.

Politics and football dont mix, but this was and is very different... we dont give up on country when they fail on the pitch nor should we give up on our country because it failed at the ballot box.

SING IT LOUDER AND PROUDER THAN EVER AND SEND A MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO THINK AND HOPE WE WILL NEVER BE A NATION AGAIN...

'STAND UP FOR THE 45 SHOULD BE THE MOST FREQUENT SONG ON SATURDAY', A LOUD AND CLEAR MESSAGE TO EVERYONE THAT WE WILL RISE AGAIN....AND A LOT SOONER THAN MANY PEOPLE REALISE.

Brilliant post Fraz and almost exactly sums up how my thought processes/feelings have developed since the vote.

Given up have you? But for why did you sing it two years ago when only 20% (in polls) backed independence and before that when the figure was lower. Flower of Scotland was still sung then with great feeling even though independence was far less likely than it is now.

Craig, I'm certain your intentions are good, but you don't do your argument any favours when you completely fail to see the significance of FoS pre referendum and post referendum. You simply can't ignore the fact that turning down the opportunity to have what the song hopes for is of huge significance.

This thread has got way out of hand though. The notion of singing of not singing being a way to protest, or get it right up the unionist etc etc is ridiculous. People just need to make their own personal decisions about whether they want to sing the song or not and leave it at that. Hell, half our players don't even sing it.

[Langtonian]

irrespective of the referendum result i am scottish,will never be british no matter what anyone or my passport says and will sing fos passionately

interestingly enough the biggest percentage of no voters were not born in scotland according to yougov survey

Edited October 8, 2014 by Langtonian

[Chief]

What have politics got to do with football?

Or is it ok to keep using the referendum result as some justification for non attendance?

[1320lichtie]

What have politics got to do with INTERNATIONAL football?

Or is it ok to keep using the referendum result as some justification for non attendance?

Everything

[tartanhamish]

We have been an Independent football nation since 1872 & the first ever international & up until recently there is no evidence that the national team support has been a hot bed of political nationalism whatever our personal feelings are post referendum. I have always supported Scotland & always will, I will sing FoS not because it is our national anthem, it isn't, I will sing it as a rousing prelude to a Scotland game.

I was around when traveling Scotland fans did the highland fling to that old music hall ditty Scotland the Brave, not the most inspirational song.

The Brazilian players sang their anthem with such gusto that the blood left their brains & feet and sat too heavily on their shoulders & much good it did them.

[Lamia]

Lamia that post was to Renfrew Blue.

I am aware of that

I will only add this people should keep politics out of football.

Not possible in this case as they are interlinked

and I will be at Ibrox on Saturday to support Scotland to the maximum of my ability to the maximum of positivity. In my opinion people saying they will refuse to sing the national anthem only brings negativity to the support - not what the national football team needs or wants.

If people want to sing fine if people don't equally fine. I couldn't sing it right now but I am not telling others they can't just like those who want to shouldn't be telling those who don't think it is appropriate that they should

I can see both arguments so think people should be allowed to do what they want without being accused of harming the national team

[Lamia]

I will sing FoS not because it is our national anthem, it isn't, I will sing it as a rousing prelude to a Scotland game.

Nice to see how much it means to you.

[Caledonian Craig]

I am aware of that

Not possible in this case as they are interlinked

If people want to sing fine if people don't equally fine. I couldn't sing it right now but I am not telling others they can't just like those who want to shouldn't be telling those who don't think it is appropriate that they should

I can see both arguments so think people should be allowed to do what they want without being accused of harming the national team

Fair enough. I just hate all this negativity though going into a crucial game. I understand how much you worked for independence and all I can say is don't ever give up on it - nobody should as it is not an issue that is going to go away. I hope you enjoy the game.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

this is getting really fricking boring

some folk on here really don't belong at fitba matches

save the whale

[RenfrewBlue]

I am aware of that

Not possible in this case as they are interlinked

If people want to sing fine if people don't equally fine. I couldn't sing it right now but I am not telling others they can't just like those who want to shouldn't be telling those who don't think it is appropriate that they should

I can see both arguments so think people should be allowed to do what they want without being accused of harming the national team

Lamia, thanks for the support but I've given up on trying to explain my opinion. Too many people on here equate not singing FoS with giving up. I will keep trying, like Robert the Bruce and his spider, and hope but at present there's no logical reason for another independence vote on the horizon. I don't think I'll be here for it but I'll put everything into getting another vote, whenever it happens.

Anyone who thinks Scotland exists as a country needs to wise up. We've chosen to be nothing more than a region just like Catalonia is. We will lose our "national" team, if FIFA have their way and it will not matter a toss what we think.

Sing the song if you want. You're just whistling in the graveyard.

[RenfrewBlue]

Fair enough. I just hate all this negativity though going into a crucial game. I understand how much you worked for independence and all I can say is don't ever give up on it - nobody should as it is not an issue that is going to go away. I hope you enjoy the game.

You really need to learn to see in more than black and white. I sang FoS and meant/felt every word. You obviously didn't. I have no problem with that. It does however mean that the song is now meaningless to me. It had no meaning for you before so it's not changed for you.

I also won't be negative at the game, I just won't sing FoS. If that means the boys aren't up for the game then they're not worthy of the jersey. Professionals perform every time irrespective of the atmosphere.

Hopefully we win as we'll need 4 points from the next two games.

[Caledonian Craig]

There is plenty of scope now for a referendum in the near future for varying reasons. Firstly, the narrowness of the vote (55-45 is by no means conclusive). Secondly, if the powers that Westminster promised do not meet up to what the Scottish government want or they feel it falls short it is surely grounds to call for another referendum as Brown's promises were a big catalyst for swaying the vote the way it did. Thirdly, the political landscape has not only changed in Scotland but it is rapidly changing in England with UKIP rapidly eroding away the Tories/Labour stranglehold and so I believe any request for future referendum may be met with less objections so lets not be so dismissive of another referendum any yime soon eh?Especially, considering Westminster's continuing gaffes as in sending in bombers to another far flung country, allowing murderers from Eastern Europe to freely enter the UK and murder again nd more gaffes are sure to follow. As for Scotland not existing as a country I'd beg to differ. It hasn't got independence but I still rate it as a country (in my opinion) as do many sporting governing bodies. And sorry but we will NOT lose our national team to FIFA I will bet my life on that.

And sing the song - I certainly will. If it is a graveyard it has more life in it now than there was five or ten years ago.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Caledonian Craig

[Caledonian Craig]

You really need to learn to see in more than black and white. I sang FoS and meant/felt every word. You obviously didn't. I have no problem with that. It does however mean that the song is now meaningless to me. It had no meaning for you before so it's not changed for you.

I also won't be negative at the game, I just won't sing FoS. If that means the boys aren't up for the game then they're not worthy of the jersey. Professionals perform every time irrespective of the atmosphere.

Hopefully we win as we'll need 4 points from the next two games.

Sorry you are wrong. I always sing it with feeling and still will on Saturday as the words still hold relevance as we can still rise to be a nation again. Maybe never happened this time around but the lyrics doesn't exactly say we can still rise now and be a nation again in 2014 does it?? So please don't try to guess what the song means to me and the relevance of singing it. Out of interest do you join in with Doe A Deer? And if so do you love The Sound of Music as a film?

[Lamia]

Sorry you are wrong. I always sing it with feeling and still will on Saturday as the words still hold relevance as we can still rise to be a nation again. Maybe never happened this time around but the lyrics doesn't exactly say we can still rise now and be a nation again in 2014 does it?? So please don't try to guess what the song means to me and the relevance of singing it. Out of interest do you join in with Doe A Deer? And if so do you love The Sound of Music as a film?

Equating the two is quite frankly ridiculous. If FoS really meant something to you you would know that

[Lamia]

Fair enough. I just hate all this negativity though going into a crucial game. I understand how much you worked for independence and all I can say is don't ever give up on it - nobody should as it is not an issue that is going to go away. I hope you enjoy the game.

Thanks but to through another spanner in the works I am not going. The SFA hacked me off, and I also couldn't face it right now even if I hadn't already decided.

[Caledonian Craig]

Equating the two is quite frankly ridiculous. If FoS really meant something to you you would know that

Well as I understand it the reservations people have about singing Flower of Scotland is that the lyrics will stick in people's throats due to referendum result. I say it is the national anthem and I will be singing it regardless of 'that line' as in any case as I said it says we can still rise' and we can and it is much more likely now than it ever has been in my lifetime. My point is why choose not to sing it because of that line not resting easy with people's conscience? We sing it with feeling and in support of the team just as Doe A Deer is sung as a way as supporting team or creating an atmosphere during the match and I'd bet many who sing it cannot stand the film it comes from but that is not the point it is sung to ramp up an atmosphere.

[Flure]

Well as I understand it the reservations people have about singing Flower of Scotland is that the lyrics will stick in people's throats due to referendum result. I say it is the national anthem and I will be singing it regardless of 'that line' as in any case as I said it says we can still rise' and we can and it is much more likely now than it ever has been in my lifetime. My point is why choose not to sing it because of that line not resting easy with people's conscience? We sing it with feeling and in support of the team just as Doe A Deer is sung as a way as supporting team or creating an atmosphere during the match and I'd bet many who sing it cannot stand the film it comes from but that is not the point it is sung to ramp up an atmosphere.

I will have serious difficulty singing the words to FoS on Saturday. I know I will.

I'll not be boycotting it. I won't be exhorting others not to sing it. Or, indeed, to sing it.

It'll be my thing on that day and at that time whether I sing it or not.

But one thing I am absolutely sure of - Flower of Scotland has more integral and emotional meaning to me as a Scotland fan, than does "Doe, a Deer".

[Caledonian Craig]

Just to re-iterate though okay if you can't bring yourself to sing it for whatever the reason but is there any need for some (not you Lamia or you Renfre Blue) to come onto message boards such as this and try to implore people not to sing the national anthem as some sort of protest. Ludicrous and plain divisive in my opinion.

[Flure]

Just to re-iterate though okay if you can't bring yourself to sing it for whatever the reason but is there any need for some (not you Lamia or you Renfre Blue) to come onto message boards such as this and try to implore people not to sing the national anthem as some sort of protest.

No. I don't believe there is.

[Flure]

http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1187-october-2014/11922-scotland-s-tartan-army-can-be-patriotic-without-politics#.VDWWoaTwTiU.facebook

[Flat Earth]

Not sure if I detect sarcasm in there or not, but I'll assume not

Not.

[tomtscotland]

Just to re-iterate though okay if you can't bring yourself to sing it for whatever the reason but is there any need for some (not you Lamia or you Renfre Blue) to come onto message boards such as this and try to implore people not to sing the national anthem as some sort of protest. Ludicrous and plain divisive in my opinion.

This is a forum. We debate issues so lets not tell some named folks it's "okay" and other unnamed folks "there is no need". Also, as far as I can see, no-one has implored that FOS should not be sung.

You have also objected to politics being raised at football. This is a perfectly valid point. However, you posted (#91) -

" Those of you thinking you are making some sort of a statement by not singing Flower of Scotland are playing into No voters or union supporting hands. It is the union lovers that would have us change our national anthem from FoS and so what are we who want independence achieving by not showing our utter defiance by singing Flower of Scotland - LOUD AND BLOODY PROUD."

- clearly you advocated singing FOS as a political statement. You cant have it both ways. The reality is that FOS has always been political and post-referendum it may be seen as some as an act of defiance, a statement of intent or indeed a protest against those ( the majority) who voted No.

My contribution to this debate was to argue against what you have said (#91) and that singing FOS will be seen by Unionists as business as usual. It will not make No voters change their mind, feel guilty or whatever. Only not singing FOS would have an impact through feeling of loss on soft No voters. I recognise that it is one of the best football anthems in the world . I am only making a debating point and not actually advocating or imploring folks not to sing FOS.

Edited October 9, 2014 by tomtscotland

[Uncle Albert]

Just a thought, what about amending the line

" we can still rise now............and be the nation again," to something like,

" we can still dream now............ of being the nation again"

[1ANDYP]

Why?? we can still rise