Union Jack Enters The Fray

[King Of Paisley]

McConnell quoted in the Sunday Post say that that SNP surge is nothing but a 'protest movement' and an SNP victory would be a 'tragedy'.

Do these people never learn? You would have thought they would have been more careful in treating the Scottish electorate with utter contempt.

An absolute dinosaur.

[exile]

The Labour party was once a protest movement, a threat to the establishment...

The Labour party was once a popular mass movement...

[Stapes]

It's truly a sight to behold to see how much their hatred of the SNP blinds them to any degree of rational thought. Most of us have been like that in relation to one thing or another at one time in our life ... Then we hit 18 years old.

[Marky]

McConnell quoted in the Sunday Post say that that SNP surge is nothing but a 'protest movement' and an SNP victory would be a 'tragedy'.

Do these people never learn? You would have thought they would have been more careful in treating the Scottish electorate with utter contempt.

An absolute dinosaur.

Unfortunately it was proven last September that these tactics work.

Unlike you a large proportion of the electorate don't feel insulted by them like they ought to, they just get scared.

Hopefully you'll be right and this time they will have learned their lesson.

[Wine bibber]

Headlines of every newspaper today apart form Herald full of "SNP" corruption" Nicola not to be trusted ".,The greatest crisis since the addication "

Grabbing ungrateful sponging stealing jocks blah blah.This is a referendum re-run no mistake.I expect another VOW around 12.39 on Friday

Surely we won't get fooled again .Will we ?

[Bannannan]

Headlines of every newspaper today apart form Herald full of "SNP" corruption" Nicola not to be trusted ".,The greatest crisis since the addication "

Grabbing ungrateful sponging stealing jocks blah blah.This is a referendum re-run no mistake.I expect another VOW around 12.39 on Friday

Surely we won't get fooled again .Will we ?

Nothing would surprise me.

[jockodile]

no chance of Vow2 I don't think. only the tories could alter things and they have nothing to gain, liberals have notgot the power base. Labour meanwhile are tainted, if not toxic, by broken promises on Vow1.

[exile]

Headlines of every newspaper today apart form Herald full of "SNP" corruption" Nicola not to be trusted ".,The greatest crisis since the addication "

Was that Teresa May in the Mail? (Abdication)

So is she saying it's worse than the 2nd world war, Hiroshima, etc...

Worse than ceding actual UK sovereignty to the EU?

[Scunnered]

Was that Teresa May in the Mail? (Abdication)

So is she saying it's worse than the 2nd world war, Hiroshima, etc...

Worse than ceding actual UK sovereignty to the EU?

No. Although May is categorically wrong, people are misinterpreting her words to spout "World War 2" etc. She specified it was the worst "constitutional crisis".

[exile]

No. Although May is categorically wrong, people are misinterpreting her words to spout "World War 2" etc. She specified it was the worst "constitutional crisis".

THe Mail presumably intended people to believe that.... affecting the most of us who don;t or won't read the full story.

But I'd still say, was the 2nd world war not a constitutional crisis? What happened to democracy and freedom of speech during that war?

And even if you reject that, what about the EU? Is ceding some UK sovereignty to the EU not a constitutional problem for her? Maybe not.

What about Northern Ireland? did the Good Friday Agreement not involve implicit or explicit right for part of the country to secede?

[DonnyTJS]

THe Mail presumably intended people to believe that.... affecting the most of us who don;t or won't read the full story.

But I'd still say, was the 2nd world war not a constitutional crisis? What happened to democracy and freedom of speech during that war?

And even if you reject that, what about the EU? Is ceding some UK sovereignty to the EU not a constitutional problem for her? Maybe not.

What about Northern Ireland? did the Good Friday Agreement not involve implicit or explicit right for part of the country to secede?

Haven't seen the Mail story, but all the above can be coped with (and were) perfectly smoothly within the UK's constitutional framework.

If May was havering about the WLQ and EVEL then that does strike at the core of the constitution (a unified polity with its legislative assembly at Westminster). The constitutional crisis really began with devolving power to Holyrood, but only a few like Tam Dalyell had the sense to point this out.

[northernscum]

Haven't seen the Mail story, but all the above can be coped with (and were) perfectly smoothly within the UK's constitutional framework.

If May was havering about the WLQ and EVEL then that does strike at the core of the constitution (a unified polity with its legislative assembly at Westminster). The constitutional crisis really began with devolving power to Holyrood, but only a few like Tam Dalyell had the sense to point this out.

So the only two available solutions to this would be for us to all to shut up and vote for one of the Unionist parties and take what comes to us or Scotland to go her own way ASAP.

[exile]

Haven't seen the Mail story, but all the above can be coped with (and were) perfectly smoothly within the UK's constitutional framework.

If May was havering about the WLQ and EVEL then that does strike at the core of the constitution (a unified polity with its legislative assembly at Westminster). The constitutional crisis really began with devolving power to Holyrood, but only a few like Tam Dalyell had the sense to point this out.

So if I follow correctly, either May was wrong, because devolution was already the greatest constitutional problem, or because her own party's proposals are?

[DonnyTJS]

So the only two available solutions to this would be for us to all to shut up and vote for one of the Unionist parties and take what comes to us or Scotland to go her own way ASAP.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

As I've said before ad nauseum, the UK's been doomed ever since devolution. The only other option would be to redraw the constitutional framework - a federal-ish system with regional assemblies in England. This would entail a written constitution with enormous barriers erected to prevent easy amendment, and that would tie Scotland into things far more effectively than under the current settlement.

[DonnyTJS]

So if I follow correctly, either May was wrong, because devolution was already the greatest constitutional problem, or because her own party's proposals are?

I'm sure May was wrong, but I don't know what her own party's proposals are. The current situation is an inevitable consequence of devolution.

[Goozay]

Haven't seen the Mail story, but all the above can be coped with (and were) perfectly smoothly within the UK's constitutional framework.

If May was havering about the WLQ and EVEL then that does strike at the core of the constitution (a unified polity with its legislative assembly at Westminster). The constitutional crisis really began with devolving power to Holyrood, but only a few like Tam Dalyell had the sense to point this out.

I saw them covering The Mail's story on the Andrew Marr Show.

Alongside quoting May about the impending constitutional crisis should the electorate vote for who they prefer, The Mail also had time to focus on her shoes - both heels and flats.

Powerful stuff from The Mail.

[exile]

Yes via Marr reportedly, apparently May was referring to the WLQ. specifically against nationalist MPs voting on English affairs (but is it OK for unionists to do so?)

If so isn't that making 'nationalist' MPs second class MPs?

Edited April 26, 2015 by exile

[DonnyTJS]

Yes via Marr reportedly, apparently May was referring to the WLQ. specifically against nationalist MPs voting on English affairs (but is it OK for unionists to do so?)

If so isn't that making 'nationalist' MPs second class MPs?

I doubt that could be the case (only certain representatives of Scottish constituencies barred from voting on English matters) as it takes the current illogicality to a whole new level of farce. But nowt would surprise me all that much...

[exile]

I can see the logic - or at least the gut argument - for why some may not wish to see a secessionist party in formal power in government.

However to say that a secessionist party is not allowed to vote on some issues that unionist parties are - (whether these are English-only or not) - seems a new development, no? It goes beyond the West Lothian question, - maybe it needs a Question of its own... (except presumably as you may imply it's maybe not a question o be taken seriously?)

So what about the SDLP? Don't they favour the secession of Northern Ireland? Is it OK for them to vote on English issues? (Do they?)

[DonnyTJS]

I can see the logic - or at least the gut argument - for why some may not wish to see a secessionist party in formal power in government.

However to say that a secessionist party is not allowed to vote on some issues that unionist parties are - (whether these are English-only or not) - seems a new development, no? It goes beyond the West Lothian question, - maybe it needs a Question of its own... (except presumably as you may imply it's maybe not a question o be taken seriously?)

So what about the SDLP? Don't they favour the secession of Northern Ireland? Is it OK for them to vote on English issues? (Do they?)

Well, we're discussing an argument that we haven't read. I find it very unlikely that May would be suggesting that the representatives of Scottish constituencies couldn't vote on certain matters because of the party they represent - I can't see how that could be legal (same applies to SDLP).

[exile]

Well, we're discussing an argument that we haven't read. I find it very unlikely that May would be suggesting that the representatives of Scottish constituencies couldn't vote on certain matters because of the party they represent - I can't see how that could be legal (same applies to SDLP).

Apparently she said [according to guardian/observer] "“It would mean Scottish MPs who have no responsibility for issues like health, education and policing in their own constituencies [as they are devolved to the Scottish parliament] making decisions on those issues for England and Wales...Rightly, people in England would say: ‘Hang on a minute, why are Scottish nationalist MPs allowed to do that?’ "

So she's putting a hypothetical in the mouths of the people in England. Using nationalist SNPs as an example of the problem of the WLQ.

So the question becomes, does our own beloved Tory MP ever vote on England-only issues?

Edited April 26, 2015 by exile

[Bristolhibby]

It's a dangerous position for the Tories to start manoeuvring into. TBH they shifted themselves with EVEL the day after the reffrendum.

It effectively shows the Union is a busted flush, really what is the point if they push this through?

J

[exile]

Actually isn;t the real constitutional issue going to be if the Tories are the largest party but can't get a government together (not sure how likely that is), and Labour could only get a majority with the help of (say) SNP, Plaid and SDLP, and then Labour would be under pressure to not try to form a government? They have already ruled out deals with SNP and already spread the assertion that it's the biggest party that forms the government. They have never answered the question of what they'd do in that scenario. Isnt that the nightmare scenario for our beloved unwritten constitution? The right wing press would have a field day. They are already making out that any arrangement with a 'nationalist' party would be toxic and illegitimate. Labour are backing themselves into a corner, because by ruling out a deal with SNP, they are in effect agreeing. Although we'd expect them to backtrack if they are the largest party (for stable govt for the good of the country) it's hard to see how they could do that if Tories were the largest party.

Edited April 26, 2015 by exile

[Jaggy Jim]

No. Although May is categorically wrong, people are misinterpreting her words to spout "World War 2" etc. She specified it was the worst "constitutional crisis".

Most folk will only have seen the Mail's front page headline which missed out the word constitutional.

[Ally Bongo]

It's actually remarkable

We are watching the end of the Union as it happens - all brought about by the Westminster establishment rather than the SNP