English Votes For English Laws

[Nobby]

Been here a few years as an interested observer and I believe this is my first thread! English votes for English laws, the SNP and Labour seem to be getting all hot under the collar about it. Whats the issue ? I presume it means that just like Scotland English MPs will get to ultimately decide on health and education etc .

[Orraloon]

I can understand why they are making a song and dance about it. In simple terms Labour are upset because it makes it easier for the Tories to push through unpopular policies. Snp are making a big deal of it because it makes them look like 2nd class MPs and it might help the independence cause if they make a lot of noise about it.

The big thing for me is who decides and how is it decided what bills it applies to. It would appear the speaker decides, who just happens to be aTory and English. He will just do what the Tory government expect him to do.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Orraloon

[fishcumnock]

Tory's are steamrolling through a constitutional change while they

have a majority ,on the surface it looks very insignificant but it

will lead to more cuts and especially more privatisation and power

to veto is part. of it ,however don't know what this veto is about.

Some clever people can explain it better than me,they'll be along

later.

Nobby ,you post on tamb all the time.

[Bristolhibby]

I guess to answer the OP, if England had its own Parliament, I would have no problem, say something in Birmingham. But they don't. Westminster is the Parliment of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Not England's.

Also there's the grey area about what's "English".

J

[Nobby]

Tory's are steamrolling through a constitutional change while they

have a majority ,on the surface it looks very insignificant but it

will lead to more cuts and especially more privatisation and power

to veto is part. of it ,however don't know what this veto is about.

Some clever people can explain it better than me,they'll be along

later.

Nobby ,you post on tamb all the time.

True but never started a thread !!

[Flora MaDonald]

This phuqqing mob would put the Third Reich to shame.

It affects us, because they still hold our pocket money, ie if they vote about the NHS in England / Wales, it affects our budget.

[Nobby]

I guess to answer the OP, if England had its own Parliament, I would have no problem, say something in Birmingham. But they don't. Westminster is the Parliment of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Not England's.

Also there's the grey area about what's "English".

J

Seriously !! Set up a specific parliament with devolved powers and all the expense of running it when we can just simply have English MP's voting on english matters ?

[Bristolhibby]

Seriously !! Set up a specific parliament with devolved powers and all the expense of running it when we can just simply have English MP's voting on english matters ?

Why not? The Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish do? Or have another chamber, but seeing as the Palace of Westminster is falling apart why not? There has to be a divide between English legislation and UK legislation. Give the English Parliament the same powers as The Scottish Parliament. Everybody's happy. West Lothian solved!

J

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bristolhibby

[King Of Paisley]

With EVEL, the Tories are unwittingly hurtling towards finishing the Union for good. The more noise the 56 SNP MPs make about this the more soft No's will move towards a solid Yes.

This is a dangerous constitutional game that is being played out.

[Flora MaDonald]

Seriously !! Set up a specific parliament with devolved powers and all the expense of running it when we can just simply have English MP's voting on english matters ?

Nobby, firstly, well done on your first post. Secondly, it wis a heap of shite.

[Nobby]

Why not? The Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish do? Or have another chamber, but seeing as the Palace of Westminster is falling apart why not? There has to be a divide between English legislation and UK legislation. Give the English Parliament the same powers as The Scottish Parliament. Everybody's happy. West Lothian solved!

J

What extra powers will English MPs have ? Are they not simply removing the right of Scottish MP's to vote on matters that do not affect there constituents ? More politicians is not necessarily a good thing !! And Im also slighlty confused as it is also being reported that this was supported by the SNP until recently

[Nobby]

Nobby, firstly, well done on your first post. Secondly, it wis a heap of shite.

High praise indeed Flora

[exile]

Been here a few years as an interested observer and I believe this is my first thread! English votes for English laws, the SNP and Labour seem to be getting all hot under the collar about it. Whats the issue ? I presume it means that just like Scotland English MPs will get to ultimately decide on health and education etc .

I think there are 2 separate issues.

One is the danger that it beccomes EVBL - English votes on British Laws. (laws that affect other parts of UK) - it's difficult to unravel what laws have only consequences for England (via BArnet etc)

The other is the way the Tories are doing it, rushing it through without due consultation, and without thinking through the consequences.

One of the consequences is that if you start to tinker with things in this way, you are increasingly making distinctions between different kinds of MP based on where they are based geographically. You could end up with 'vetos' like the way the EU runs but that's not the way the UK union works. One of the points of the Union was that all MPs would sit together as equals, irrespective of which bit of which island they came from...

But as others have said this could be the acceleration of the unravelling of the Union

You could say Labour did devolution for short term party political gain then, but it created a democratic imbalance; and now Tories are doing EVEL for short term party political gain, but that creates another imbalance, each step further weakening the unity of the union....

Edited July 3, 2015 by exile

[Nobby]

I think there are 2 separate issues.

One is the danger that it beccomes EVBL - English votes on British Laws. (laws that affect other parts of UK) - it's difficult to unravel what laws have only consequences for England (via BArnet etc)

The other is the way the Tories are doing it, rushing it through without due consultation, and without thinking through the consequences.

One of the consequences is that if you start to tinker with things in this way, you are increasingly making distinctions between different kinds of MP based on where they are based geographically. You could end up with 'vetos' like the way the EU runs but that's not the way the UK union works. One of the points of the Union was that all MPs would sit together as equals, irrespective of which bit of which island they came from...

But as others have said this could be the acceleration of the unravelling of the Union

You could say Labour did devolution for short term party political gain then, but it created a democratic imbalance; and now Tories are doing EVEL for short term party political gain, but that creates another imbalance, each step further weakening the unity of the union....

Agreed. it definitley not should become EVBL. It should enable English MP's to vote on matters that affect their constituents and are devolved to N irish, Scottish and Welsh Parliaments and consequently those MP's should have no say on the matter as it does not affect their constituents.

As for all MPs being equal, that ended with the various parliaments being put in place this is not the tories doing !

I definitely would not want an English Parliament. it is not needed and in general i perceive more politicians is a bad thing. As for weakening the Union I would think the juries out but we shall see !!

[mariokempes56]

So this will be the same non-Scottish MPs who voted down every single amendment to the "Scotland" bill as it passed through this week (despite only half a dozen bothering to attend the debates, then appearing en-mass to vote them down)?

Aye democracy my fekkin erse.

[Maq]

It's a pile of pish - the Tories want English votes for English laws (laws that concern England only) in a UK parliament. What English only laws will be discussed? As Flora mentioned above - cuts to health etc will have a knock on effect to the rest of the UK, so all UK MPs should have a say on it.

Yet on Scottish issues at Westminster - such as amendments to the Scotlamd Bill, FFA etc - 100% of MPs serving Scottish constituencies could agree on something, but it won't matter, they can always be outvoted by English constituent MPs.

The "Scottish Affairs Committee" of 11 MPs has 7 MPs from English constituencies!

Why the feck is a Tory MP from Christchurch, Dorset getting involved in Scottish only affairs, and at the same time asking for EVEL?

That said, I'm all for it if it shows more folk up here that the UK isn't working for Scotland

[deecie]

EVEL should only happen in an English Parliament.

Pretty simple stuff really.

[Huddersfield]

The shambles of the Northern Powerhouse & cancellation of electrifying the trans-Pennine rail link shows why EVEL is fundamentally flawed.

The majority of the population of England live around London/SE so it will, through natural process rather than conspiracy, become SE votes on English laws and we will end up with a more entrenched version of what currently happens. The North is being starved of investment now. N. English councils, particularly Labour run ones are taking significantly greater cuts than their Home Counties counterparts. So whilst the realpolitik argument says that every party in power will always favour its own; from a N. English perspective why would we want to entrench that whilst pretending we somehow have greater influence over some mythical & biased concept of what is English.

Even the alternatives such as Devo-Manc are predicated on huge cuts. Get the equality issue right, get the economic bias sorted out & get growth, social justice and equity across all parts of the country & I might just start to support it.

[Scunnered]

With EVEL, the Tories are unwittingly hurtling towards finishing the Union for good. The more noise the 56 SNP MPs make about this the more soft No's will move towards a solid Yes.

This is a dangerous constitutional game that is being played out.

See here's the thing. It's an important issue, and the West Lothian question has always needed to be addressed... However Yes comrades are getting WAY over excited about this, the average electorate member has no idea this is even an issue, and the ones that do won't really care. Active Yes & No campaigners will be swayed on issues of fairness like this and will fight their corner, but that's about all. I've seen people make post after post on this on Social media and their comrades will like and share, but the average Joe/Bella will scroll past it to get to the latest "When I saw what happened next I couldn't control myself" shite.

[Nobby]

It's a pile of pish - the Tories want English votes for English laws (laws that concern England only) in a UK parliament. What English only laws will be discussed? As Flora mentioned above - cuts to health etc will have a knock on effect to the rest of the UK, so all UK MPs should have a say on it.

Yet on Scottish issues at Westminster - such as amendments to the Scotlamd Bill, FFA etc - 100% of MPs serving Scottish constituencies could agree on something, but it won't matter, they can always be outvoted by English constituent MPs.

The "Scottish Affairs Committee" of 11 MPs has 7 MPs from English constituencies!

Why the feck is a Tory MP from Christchurch, Dorset getting involved in Scottish only affairs, and at the same time asking for EVEL?

That said, I'm all for it if it shows more folk up here that the UK isn't working for Scotland

How will an English vote on the NHS affect NHS Scotland ? Is that budget not given from a block grant and preumably that block grant/Barnett would require the vote of all MPs ?

[Auld_Reekie]

It should enable English MP's to vote on matters that affect their constituents and are devolved to N irish, Scottish and Welsh Parliaments and consequently those MP's should have no say on the matter as it does not affect their constituents.

It's not quite as simple as that. Even devolved matters such as health will have consequentials on the Scottish budget so it's actually very rare for there to be a matter that only affects English electorate. EVEL seems utterly pointless to me unless you plan a major re-architecting of the Union: powers, funding, scrap Barnett, the lot. As that's not being proposed, some people - whetehr it's the Scots, English, etc - are going to be mighty pi**ed by the end of the process.

[Maq]

How will an English vote on the NHS affect NHS Scotland ? Is that budget not given from a block grant and preumably that block grant/Barnett would require the vote of all MPs ?

If there was an 'English vote' to reduce funding to the NHS, funding to the independent NHS Scotland would be reduced as well, as a consequential of the Barnett formula, without 'Scottish' MPs getting any say on it at all

[Nobby]

If there was an 'English vote' to reduce funding to the NHS, funding to the independent NHS Scotland would be reduced as well, as a consequential of the Barnett formula, without 'Scottish' MPs getting any say on it at all

Well that is clearly wrong and if that is the case it will need to be resolved but I dont think the issue is insurmountable. If the tories did that they would break up the union so I cant see it happening. we shall see ! How UK Plc's cash is divvied up is a vote for all MP's

[jockodile]

The only real solution to this with the Union surviving is a federal system. EVEL in this form is a million miles for that. The union is on life support, we need to suck it up for a bit but longer term there is only 1 outcome.

[scotlad]

The shambles of the Northern Powerhouse & cancellation of electrifying the trans-Pennine rail link shows why EVEL is fundamentally flawed.

The majority of the population of England live around London/SE so it will, through natural process rather than conspiracy, become SE votes on English laws and we will end up with a more entrenched version of what currently happens. The North is being starved of investment now. N. English councils, particularly Labour run ones are taking significantly greater cuts than their Home Counties counterparts. So whilst the realpolitik argument says that every party in power will always favour its own; from a N. English perspective why would we want to entrench that whilst pretending we somehow have greater influence over some mythical & biased concept of what is English.

Even the alternatives such as Devo-Manc are predicated on huge cuts. Get the equality issue right, get the economic bias sorted out & get growth, social justice and equity across all parts of the country & I might just start to support it.

For quite a while I've been of the view that what England needs isn't its own stand-alone parliament, but more local democracy. That needn't even be in the form of regional assemblies: just devolve more power to county/city councils.

That said, I don't know the ins and outs of policies such as Devo-Manc. If it means that huge public expenditure cuts are for some reason necessary to get the thing off the ground then it might not be worth it.

See here's the thing. It's an important issue, and the West Lothian question has always needed to be addressed... However Yes товарищs are getting WAY over excited about this, the average electorate member has no idea this is even an issue, and the ones that do won't really care. Active Yes & No campaigners will be swayed on issues of fairness like this and will fight their corner, but that's about all. I've seen people make post after post on this on Social media and their товарищs will like and share, but the average Joe/Bella will scroll past it to get to the latest "When I saw what happened next I couldn't control myself" shite.

True dat.

It is a sad fact that many people don't really sit up and pay attention to politics until the government does something that directly affects them. If the rumours are true and Tax Credits are set to be cut back, then that might give a few people a jolt. EVEL and Barnett consequentials aren't very sound-bitey though, and it doesn't take long for the average Facebook or Twitter user's thumb to start scrolling down to the next cat picture.